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🗒 Brief summary
In this episode, we chat with Max, the founder of the 100 Days of No Code project. Max shares their journey from failed startup to discovering the world of no-code. We discuss the growth of the project, the importance of project-based learning, and the future of no-code with AI integration. Max also talks about their social media presence and how they document their building process on Twitter and LinkedIn.
📚 Resources
- Max on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HainingMax
- #100daysofnocode on Twitter: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23100DaysOfNoCode
- 100days account : https://twitter.com/100daysnocode
- 100 days of no-code website: https://www.100daysofnocode.com/
- Max on Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxhaining/
📖 Chapters
0:00:00 Introduction and Setting at RSA House in London
0:04:53 The Need for Technical Knowledge
0:07:18 Exploring the Idea of No-Code
0:10:08 The Birth of 100 Days of Code
0:14:02 The Need for Structure and Community
0:19:18 Building a community and leveraging growth
0:22:04 From Hashtag to Community: The Evolution of 100 Days of No Code
0:24:02 Adding Structure: Introducing the Daily Curriculum Challenge
0:25:21 Starting with Lean Education Approach
0:27:25 Balancing Motivation and Complexity in Project Selection
0:29:36 No-Code: Beyond Code - Design, Marketing, Product Management
0:32:22 AI as the Next Level of NoCode Development
0:34:21 AI Integration in Existing Tools: Zapier, Bardeen, Framer
0:36:19 The Exciting Possibilities of AI Integration in NoCode Tools
0:38:14 Teaching transferable skills with five essential tools
0:41:12 Introducing AI Skills Training for Individuals and Companies
0:42:10 Building a community within their own circle
0:43:04 Plans for In-Person Meetups and Future Expansion
📃 Long Summary
In this podcast episode, I interview Max, the founder of the 100 Days of No Code project. Conducted at the RSA house in London, the discussion delves into Max's journey into the no-code space. Max initially wanted to learn coding but was drawn to the no-code movement after reading an article by Ryan Hoover. Inspired by the "100 Days of Code" concept, Max started "100 Days of No Code" and chronicled the journey on Twitter.
The conversation touches on the benefits of project-based learning and the importance of community platforms like Twitter for sharing progress and mutual support. The project has since evolved from a hashtag to a community and now an education company. They have a paid Slack community and are offering structured learning experiences through curriculum and boot camps.
The episode also explores the future convergence of AI and no-code, mentioning tools like Zapier, Bardeen, and Framer which are integrating AI into their workflows. We both emphasize being tool-agnostic in the no-code field and talk about upcoming educational offerings, including a no-code times AI boot camp.
Regarding social media, Max is active on Twitter and LinkedIn, documenting their company's journey, while I mainly focuses on newsletters and YouTube tutorials.
[00:00:05] Hello and welcome to the No-Code World Radio podcast. I'm Alex your host and you're listening to the fourth season
[00:00:11] I'm in London. This is my very last day actually
[00:00:15] I'm gonna live in a couple of hours, but right before I take my train
[00:00:19] I'm gonna meet with max founder of 100 days of no code
[00:00:23] You probably have seen this hashtag on Twitter or X as it's called now
[00:00:28] And I'm very curious to understand how it all started and what they are doing now because I've seen that it's expanding
[00:00:35] So I'm very looking forward to meet with max. Let's go for the discussion
[00:00:40] Hi max, thank you for having me here at the RSA house in London
[00:00:49] Which is a pretty fancy building and fancy place. You can tell us two words about it after
[00:00:55] I'm very glad that we have a chance to meet you. You're the the founder of the
[00:01:02] 100 days of no code
[00:01:04] Which is quite popular hashtag and there's a project behind it and I want to know all about it
[00:01:09] So I'm very happy that we have a chance even if it was a bit last minute to talk
[00:01:15] First of all, can you introduce yourself a little bit please? Yeah, of course
[00:01:19] yeah, firstly super excited to to be here and
[00:01:24] Although it is a fancy place
[00:01:27] It's it's a really
[00:01:30] Open space for anyone to to come in to so if ever someone is around this area. It's a good spot to work
[00:01:37] But it's a bit of a secret a bit of a secret maybe not anymore after this podcast
[00:01:45] Yeah, exactly, but I max
[00:01:49] So I run 100 days of no code which is an online campus
[00:01:55] That helps people bring their ideas to life
[00:01:59] With the the kind of the twist being
[00:02:02] That they don't have to write any code to to bring their ideas to life
[00:02:07] And that is because we teach people how to visually
[00:02:11] Create their ideas into reality
[00:02:15] We run bootcamps. We run challenges. We have courses
[00:02:19] But it all started as a Twitter hashtag
[00:02:22] Just before we we get into the the story of how you came up with this hashtag and
[00:02:27] The context also because I think it was quite linked to
[00:02:31] What happened at that time?
[00:02:33] What's your background? Did you arrive in into this?
[00:02:36] No code. Yeah, sure. So I guess
[00:02:41] pre no code
[00:02:42] I didn't really have much for a background in the sense of I was straight out of university or nearly straight out of university
[00:02:50] So
[00:02:51] But the the recurring theme like in everything I've done is I've always dabbled in a little bit of like entrepreneurship
[00:02:58] or try to kind of
[00:03:00] Get my teeth stuck into any project or any experience that gives me a little bit more
[00:03:06] understanding of
[00:03:07] How business works and being on that kind of frontline
[00:03:10] Whether we made money or not was a whole another thing
[00:03:13] but at that age have always just been quite intrigued by
[00:03:17] And driven by the fact I didn't really want a job and so how can I make money in another way?
[00:03:25] And that obviously led me into different paths
[00:03:28] But the first thing I did out of university and I guess my background is in social entrepreneurship
[00:03:35] So I did a year-long program
[00:03:38] that kind of
[00:03:40] sent me into the frontline of
[00:03:43] various social impact organizations
[00:03:45] To understand some of the problems
[00:03:49] That they were facing and that was all to kind of give me a bit of a
[00:03:56] An understanding of a problem before going out to build some venture that may or may not kind of solve that but those problems
[00:04:02] So social issues
[00:04:03] Okay, you don't have any technical background. No exactly
[00:04:08] no technical background
[00:04:10] And I would put myself at the very beginning of the technical spectrum
[00:04:14] So at school I was always probably one of the worst people in IT class
[00:04:20] and
[00:04:22] My friends always kind of like joked about it as well. So I was pretty bad
[00:04:28] And like even to just put that into context
[00:04:32] Spreadsheets scared me
[00:04:34] Microsoft Word was just about doable but beyond that I wasn't any good at tech. Okay. Okay interesting
[00:04:42] So how did it all started? How does
[00:04:47] Yeah, so I'll just give you a quick back story. So while at university when I was kind of exploring this whole idea of entrepreneurship
[00:04:54] I worked today and kind of co-founded this AirBnB for storage startup called storage shepherd
[00:05:03] We raised a little bit of money and we won some awards and it was all
[00:05:09] orientated around
[00:05:11] Connecting with people with spare space in their homes to people that wanted to add
[00:05:17] To to share or put their storage somewhere else, but they wanted it to be a little bit cheaper than putting in a warehouse
[00:05:23] and
[00:05:25] Convenient, you know, they could put it in a neighbor's house rather than a big storage warehouse in the middle of nowhere
[00:05:30] Yeah, that was the idea. We thought it was very good at the time
[00:05:36] But one of the reasons we failed
[00:05:39] Was because our team so there was three of us we were all non-technical
[00:05:44] okay, and
[00:05:46] We were very dependent on developers
[00:05:49] To the point where we were kind of not really able to respond to use a feedback
[00:05:54] Because we got some feedback in but we couldn't make any changes to the product
[00:05:58] So this back and forth that took a long time and we couldn't move
[00:06:04] To the speed of the market really
[00:06:08] And that planted a seed in my head of I'm gonna need to learn a bit of some technical knowledge
[00:06:14] if I'm gonna
[00:06:17] You know build my next thing or be successful in some way
[00:06:22] So that was the seed
[00:06:24] And then out of university. I thought well to address this I'm gonna learn how to code
[00:06:28] That was all I knew at the time that was the I didn't know about no code. It just made sense
[00:06:34] So I thought right. I'll sign up to a few coding boot camps
[00:06:40] But fortunately before even starting any of those coding boot camps very fortunately
[00:06:44] I stumbled across an article by Ryan Hoover
[00:06:48] That said that titled the rise of no code. Hmm. That was when I first like was introduced to the idea and I was completely
[00:06:57] sort of
[00:07:00] Taken aback by this idea and went down the big rabbit hole ever since it's
[00:07:06] So yeah, Ryan Hoover is the founder of product and yes, I think I was always been a big advocate of no code tools
[00:07:15] They've been several no code tools launched successfully on product and yeah, and yeah, I think this article
[00:07:20] I think was 2018 or 2019 something but it was a quite a I remember reading it as well
[00:07:26] I think it it was a one of those thing that's kind of started that contributed to start the movement. Yes for sure
[00:07:34] Absolutely, and so what what did you do from there? So from there? I
[00:07:42] Quickly
[00:07:44] Sort of took away my place on some of these coding boot camps. I was about to start
[00:07:49] Because I think I knew deep down that I wasn't really
[00:07:53] Cut out
[00:07:56] I thought actually
[00:07:58] So I keep you. Yeah, yeah, you can
[00:08:01] So I knew deep down that I didn't really want to learn to code
[00:08:06] It was it was more of a out of necessity rather than something I was doing out of joy
[00:08:12] So any other way I could get to the same outcome
[00:08:15] I was very open to that idea and no code was a different way from a to b and
[00:08:21] To me it looked a more fun easier and quicker way to get there
[00:08:26] so I
[00:08:29] scrapped my place on the coding boot camps and
[00:08:31] Started digging into just the world of no code seeing whatever I could find online YouTube videos
[00:08:39] Articles just like Ryan Hoover's one communities, but at that time so in late 2019 the space was very new
[00:08:45] There wasn't much infrastructure around it or people or communities
[00:08:50] So I was a little bit isolated and didn't quite know where to start
[00:08:57] So I essentially failed and kind of gave up and spent a couple of months
[00:09:01] You know in a rabbit hole that didn't turn into anything, but I still had that
[00:09:06] No code knowledge or at least idea of no code in my head that I thought well if I start something again
[00:09:12] I'll come back to it. Yeah
[00:09:14] You made the first the groundwork maybe of like knowing because there's many different tools many understanding the
[00:09:22] I don't know like the ecosystem
[00:09:24] Yeah, so like and that was it. I had very good understanding of the tools and the ecosystem
[00:09:30] But I didn't know how to use any of them
[00:09:32] I hadn't built any projects and I hadn't got any proof that I knew anything about this space
[00:09:37] But did you have any project? I mean do that maybe that was the problem
[00:09:41] Nothing to build or there was a little bit of that and actually
[00:09:46] I'll get to this in a minute, but that was one of the key problems. I had starting out as I didn't have a project
[00:09:54] So I didn't have a motivation level to really dive in because as we all know no code is easier
[00:10:01] But it's not easy. So there's an investment there
[00:10:05] Definitely, but we all know but it's still good to say
[00:10:08] Because there is new people that and there are also people who are starting to say it's easy
[00:10:13] And you know, it's like blurring the message of I think it's it's very important. Yeah. Yeah for sure
[00:10:19] Okay, and so I guess then the pandemic happened. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So
[00:10:26] The pandemic happened and that was almost a good time
[00:10:30] because
[00:10:31] Although it was a bad time for many people
[00:10:33] for lots of people
[00:10:35] Of course, we had a bit of spare time on our hands
[00:10:38] We were locked inside
[00:10:40] and
[00:10:42] I kind of thought well, I dropped no code
[00:10:45] You know a few months back now is the perfect time to actually learn this stuff
[00:10:50] So
[00:10:51] When I had actually looked at learning to code
[00:10:54] I'd seen them there was this thing called 100 days of code and it would always stuck out to me
[00:10:58] Well, actually that looks like a really good way to learn
[00:11:01] A challenge based way of learning
[00:11:04] On top of maybe a bootcamp or something or a structure curriculum. So that
[00:11:09] idea
[00:11:10] Of kind of challenge based learning had kind of plans in my mind
[00:11:14] So when I came to learning no code, I thought well
[00:11:17] The last time I tried this I failed because I didn't have any structure
[00:11:21] Let's now apply 100 days of code, but to no code and do
[00:11:27] the equivalent version
[00:11:29] Which then became 100 days of no code
[00:11:32] And all that looked like was me announcing to
[00:11:35] My sort of 50 follower twitter account
[00:11:39] Hey, I'm going to be learning to code. Sorry, no code
[00:11:44] For 30 minutes a day
[00:11:47] Over the next 100 days, I'm going to share my progress every day. Does anyone want to join?
[00:11:53] And that was it
[00:11:56] So and it resonated with people but that was the that was the start of the journey
[00:12:01] So you started by basically applying to yourself
[00:12:05] Like you did the first run pretty much to inspire people
[00:12:09] But were there people who joined straight away?
[00:12:12] Yeah, or you had to go through alone for 100 days
[00:12:15] So the funny thing is people assume that I was the first person to complete 100 days of no code
[00:12:21] But I wasn't okay because
[00:12:24] People if you really dedicated people that saw that early twitter message
[00:12:30] They completed it before me. Um, because they just had a level of consistency that I didn't
[00:12:37] And they they did it day to day for those 100 days
[00:12:42] Okay, so you did yeah, okay because you say that because you didn't complete like 100 days in a row or
[00:12:48] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so I had a had a couple of rest days
[00:12:52] But some people didn't and they were so excited about
[00:12:55] About learning these skills that they just had a an intrinsic motivation that drove them through that 100 days
[00:13:02] And of course there wasn't much else to do as we keep saying so
[00:13:06] Yeah, but so how did you or those people also kind of structured their
[00:13:13] Work like the 30 days with how did you decide which we're going to do because at that time?
[00:13:17] There were no program or anything. I mean it was an yeah
[00:13:21] And and that was
[00:13:23] That was the thing so it was a very powerful formula for learning
[00:13:27] For people that maybe were coming from more a technical technical background
[00:13:32] But it wasn't so powerful for people like me who didn't have that technical background and needed a little bit of hand holding
[00:13:39] to
[00:13:40] Basically tell me what to do what to learn
[00:13:43] What does
[00:13:44] A database mean what does responsive design mean all these terms were completely foreign to me
[00:13:50] So I did need a bit of that formal education, but I didn't have it
[00:13:54] So what I did was just pick a project and at the time
[00:14:00] That project was a positivity map
[00:14:03] so
[00:14:04] Trying to map out all the positive things that people were doing in response to co vid
[00:14:10] In my local community
[00:14:12] I thought it was a tangible project
[00:14:14] It could be quite useful and help people sort of boost morale in a way and it helped me learn to know code
[00:14:20] And I thought just reversed engineered it and was like well, what skills do I need?
[00:14:26] to
[00:14:26] Have this outcome have this project and kind of just
[00:14:31] Put together
[00:14:33] articles youtube
[00:14:35] videos
[00:14:36] and
[00:14:37] The community on twitter to kind of help me get there and that was it really but there was no formal path. Okay, and did you
[00:14:45] Because it's interesting to understand, you know like the
[00:14:48] The conception of like at which point did you figured okay?
[00:14:52] This is I could something I could reproduce and maybe
[00:14:56] Because you didn't have a chance to have someone to as you say like
[00:15:01] Handle, you know, I don't know. I just said I mean so give you the the the pass at which point did you figure?
[00:15:07] Okay, I'm gonna do it, you know like as I'm doing it
[00:15:11] maybe
[00:15:12] Keep the notes or I don't know what what you did and sure or was it afterwards or
[00:15:18] Yeah, so I think I think it was around
[00:15:21] Day 40 or day 50 when I
[00:15:24] I realized
[00:15:26] Okay, people really care about learning this skill people are really excited about it
[00:15:31] But they need a little bit more structure. The problem I had was I'm still a beginner. I can't give people structure
[00:15:37] I I'm learning this myself
[00:15:41] How am I meant to guide people when I don't know how to guide myself? Um, so what I did was
[00:15:48] In the early days was
[00:15:50] Instead of thinking, oh, I need to create content
[00:15:54] I need to create a curriculum all these things
[00:15:57] I thought well, no, I can't do those so let's instead focus on building a community around people
[00:16:03] And what that like looked like at the time was essentially workshops
[00:16:08] accountability groups
[00:16:11] And things that didn't require me to share knowledge because I didn't have it and it was actually
[00:16:17] Allowing people that did have that knowledge already to share the knowledge
[00:16:21] it's very interesting because
[00:16:24] I mean like there's so much you can learn
[00:16:27] Without a teacher in a way just, you know from your peers like but what you need is a group
[00:16:33] Like and uh and being alone on the internet although there is
[00:16:37] Vast knowledge there. It's not the same as having someone tell you okay, this resource is good or come
[00:16:43] I will do a half an hour workshop on this exactly. So I think yeah, I understand now more like the the past and I think there's a lot of value for you
[00:16:50] You could do straight away, but he was also a bit out of necessity. Exactly. Yeah born born out of necessity
[00:16:57] And I was you know going to these workshops that I'd organized
[00:17:01] And going to these accountability groups and getting more out of it than most people because you know
[00:17:07] I was really at the start of my learning journey as well
[00:17:10] And you're completely right like the accountability groups
[00:17:13] We had a weekly calls people would jump on and they would just share what the best learning resources were they'd be like
[00:17:18] Oh, you should skip that one
[00:17:20] But like do this this is great and then you know, you'd you'd save tons of time
[00:17:25] Um, and your path would become a little bit more clear. Um in the absence of curriculum
[00:17:31] Oh, it's it's very interesting. I remember seeing on on twitter
[00:17:36] People posting photos of the group calls for instance, or there's also like a powerful
[00:17:43] Network effect with this also one each of the people from the community can kind of advertise not in a bad way, but I mean
[00:17:51] Yes, sure
[00:17:52] Yeah, and that's I think that was one of the other or what this still is one of the powerful mechanics
[00:17:58] of
[00:17:59] This way of learning is you've got the formula for learning
[00:18:03] Learn for for 30 minutes a day
[00:18:05] Um, share what you're going to learn every day and make sure you publicly commit to actually doing that
[00:18:11] Um, one of the the think the best things about that is that by sharing what you learn every day
[00:18:17] You bring other people on that journey with you whether that's feedback
[00:18:21] Whether that's just support cheerleaders
[00:18:23] um
[00:18:24] And then you've kind of got your own
[00:18:27] Army of people around you as you're learning versus doing it in on your own. Yeah
[00:18:32] This is that's that's another thing that
[00:18:35] Really, I think emerged at the same time. It's like the the hashtag
[00:18:40] Building public. Yes. Yeah, try the thing about the same time or what would you say or?
[00:18:46] Yeah, yeah, it was it was and it's interesting like
[00:18:50] It's not designed to help people build in public 100 days of no code
[00:18:54] It's helped it's designed to learn to no code
[00:18:57] But in doing 100 days of no code people say it really kind of helped them
[00:19:03] become
[00:19:04] More free on on socials and help them build that habit of sharing what they do
[00:19:11] because
[00:19:12] The funny thing is
[00:19:13] People find it hard to just tweet into the void
[00:19:16] But if they have permission to tweet so oh well, I'm part of this challenge
[00:19:21] It's part of the rules
[00:19:23] Like I need to tweet then it changes the framing of it and people are much more likely to do it. Yeah
[00:19:28] Yeah, it's true. It's interesting, but I mean, yeah
[00:19:31] It's hard and I guess also you also cannot get your first followers also from the community
[00:19:36] So you're not totally speaking
[00:19:39] Alone, yeah, at least you have people who goes through what you're doing and then slowly from there you build
[00:19:44] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's the that's the beauty of having hashtag
[00:19:48] Is you just type it in and you see everyone else who's on that learning journey
[00:19:52] Um, and obviously you've got lots of community platforms circle slack all this stuff
[00:19:57] But I actually think the best community platform is twitter. Um in a way
[00:20:02] I mean, I agree and I think your story really shows shows that I mean you really build
[00:20:07] The community on top of on top of it and it was great. I think that probably helps
[00:20:12] Like leverage like really the
[00:20:15] And grow quicker. Are you afraid of everything that's that's happening with twitter or x?
[00:20:22] Yeah, exactly. Um, I think
[00:20:27] I my
[00:20:29] piece of mind was a little bit higher when
[00:20:32] When ilo must wasn't
[00:20:35] Running twitter but
[00:20:38] I think
[00:20:40] I think now it it's it's almost a good thing because we actually encourage people to
[00:20:45] To share their journey where they feel comfortable whether that is slack whether that's twitter whether it's linkedin
[00:20:51] I feel like linkedin has grow also kind of
[00:20:54] I mean, it's been around for a while, but I find it
[00:20:57] It's a different format. I used to like the shorter like tweets
[00:21:00] But I feel like linkedin can be annoying, but I can also be quite interesting
[00:21:05] Yeah filter out, you know, like all the noise and the entrepreneurs like saying there are there are solo stories
[00:21:12] Yeah, exactly and so I although it it is
[00:21:18] It could potentially change the dynamic of of how we started i twitter hashtag
[00:21:25] I think it's forced us to think about how does this formula work across different platforms?
[00:21:31] So it's probably will be good for us long term, but
[00:21:35] definitely
[00:21:36] Is an interesting time
[00:21:38] Building a business on top of twitter. Um, yeah
[00:21:42] But so so what is it now because
[00:21:46] I saw that you have even a team of people working with you
[00:21:49] What how did it grow like really because now it's a company that you're running
[00:21:56] Yeah, I mean how because
[00:21:59] From the outside at least I don't feel like you're really dependent on twitter anymore. I mean you're you're more like an education company
[00:22:05] Yes, yeah
[00:22:07] Yeah, exactly. Um, and
[00:22:11] I guess twitter is definitely um very important for us, but thankfully
[00:22:16] Uh, I guess just over that period of time sort of nearly three years now since we started
[00:22:23] You just build up a level of that kind of social proof and
[00:22:27] um audience where you can
[00:22:30] um
[00:22:31] gain distribution from
[00:22:33] Uh multiple sources rather than just one. Um
[00:22:37] And I'm sure that's what you found with um
[00:22:39] Consonement is just like
[00:22:41] You can um find people in different places
[00:22:45] Yeah, um, yeah, so um, but for us, um
[00:22:50] the first kind of so the first
[00:22:53] iteration of the 100 days of no code was a hashtag
[00:22:57] Then it went from hashtag to a community and that was what I said the workshops the accountability groups
[00:23:03] Based on all the things that didn't involve me teaching which is great. Um, so I learned
[00:23:07] as part of that and then it went from
[00:23:10] Hashtag community to essentially education company
[00:23:13] um
[00:23:14] And that leap probably took the longest
[00:23:17] To become an education company because
[00:23:19] What that looks like is designing
[00:23:22] um, you know
[00:23:25] working back from outcomes and
[00:23:27] designing
[00:23:28] learning experiences that help people
[00:23:32] um
[00:23:33] Go from one place to another and that's a whole another beast. Um in and of itself
[00:23:39] When when did people started paying for?
[00:23:42] Which were organizing?
[00:23:44] So they started paying
[00:23:46] um
[00:23:47] When we had a community so we had the
[00:23:50] In public community that anyone could be a part of which is as I said on twitter
[00:23:54] But then we had the paid community which was on slack. Um, and that just offered a few more benefits
[00:24:01] um
[00:24:02] And that was kind of the first validation that
[00:24:05] People want extra help
[00:24:07] Um, and they were learning for it and yeah
[00:24:10] You need this validation in order to figure like that you might build a company. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and
[00:24:17] It was great for validation
[00:24:19] But it was also great in telling me it's hard to build a business of 10 month 10 pound a month subscriptions
[00:24:27] um
[00:24:28] So it kind of got us thinking
[00:24:30] Um, as well how this has become a sustainable business as well
[00:24:34] And that's when I I guess maybe you started doing like more like bootcamp like more format like more formal
[00:24:40] I mean not formal but like
[00:24:42] Experiences as you say like
[00:24:45] Yeah, exactly. So we are kind of first
[00:24:48] um
[00:24:49] first
[00:24:51] uh
[00:24:53] Step into the world of education
[00:24:56] Uh, so I was it was still just me and this was in 2021
[00:25:00] um october
[00:25:02] And I I decided to
[00:25:05] um
[00:25:07] essentially
[00:25:08] add
[00:25:09] A daily bite-sized curriculum on top of the challenge
[00:25:13] So there's that that formula that's always been there the three things
[00:25:17] But then I thought well, okay. I'm now kind of in a place where I can
[00:25:21] Add that layer of structure to people's journey. Will this help people?
[00:25:25] Um
[00:25:26] Get further along will it help them?
[00:25:29] Um direct their efforts in a better way
[00:25:32] so I basically announced this sort of beta version of
[00:25:37] The 100 days of no-code challenge but with curriculum
[00:25:40] um
[00:25:42] in sort of uh, September time
[00:25:44] and
[00:25:46] Rolling around october 1st. We had about 250 people that had signed up but I had no
[00:25:52] Uh curriculum
[00:25:54] Okay, so so essentially I was writing the lessons the day before they came to the the
[00:26:00] Participants must have been intense
[00:26:03] Yeah, it was it was a good accountability mechanism for me. Um, so it was okay validate people want this
[00:26:11] Cool. Now let's write the lessons and maybe that was a bit too lean, but um
[00:26:16] That was how it started
[00:26:18] So that was our first dip into education and then from there
[00:26:22] We've added
[00:26:23] Extra curriculums, but then also boot camps as well
[00:26:27] all right
[00:26:30] Do you have examples of people? I guess I have two two questions. I should have asked two questions sometime
[00:26:36] I know you're good, but it's um what people were building or how did they learn?
[00:26:43] I guess a lot of them had projects. Maybe I'm wrong, but
[00:26:47] And what were they doing after also what they went through the?
[00:26:52] Yeah, sure. Um, so I guess with the project one, um
[00:26:58] Either way, so we we believe and it just makes a ton of sense
[00:27:03] project-based learning
[00:27:05] Is more powerful than um simply learning to learn. Um, so having an output or some form of
[00:27:14] Tangible, um
[00:27:16] Output to your learning makes sense
[00:27:18] Um, but we found that there was kind of two types
[00:27:21] There was people that came in with an idea and they they were fixated on this idea
[00:27:25] And they're really excited about it
[00:27:27] So we channel their efforts around that idea
[00:27:30] And then we found people that were just interested in no code, but we said to them
[00:27:34] you're gonna get
[00:27:36] this far
[00:27:37] If you if you learn without a project and you're gonna get
[00:27:42] Much further if you learn with a project. So in that case, we would give people
[00:27:47] ideas for projects that they could build um, and you'd start with okay a simple blog
[00:27:53] directory
[00:27:56] Job boards, uh, simple personal websites
[00:28:00] the simple
[00:28:01] Zero to one stuff and then we would kind of help them pick those more advanced projects as they went
[00:28:08] Okay, no, that's that's interesting. I think I've really mixed feeling about, um
[00:28:14] Um people coming with their projects because I think sometimes what happened
[00:28:18] I think it's true. It grieves a great motivation. So this is the best
[00:28:23] But he also sometimes it doesn't help learning because maybe their project is too complicated. Maybe
[00:28:28] You know, it's like they are going to
[00:28:31] You know, it's like and I think it's much better at least my point of view when you learn
[00:28:37] To work on kind of fake projects, but are designed
[00:28:40] for learning
[00:28:42] May learning database is learning automation learning like specific skills. I think it's uh
[00:28:47] So I agree totally and um some people try and like sprint before they can walk. Um, and
[00:28:55] we
[00:28:56] Without those
[00:28:57] That fundamental understanding and this is exactly what I did at the start
[00:29:01] I went tried to go too hard too quickly and realized
[00:29:05] I didn't actually understand what I was trying to build. I didn't know
[00:29:09] What data I needed to um to to come in and out of the app. I didn't know
[00:29:15] um
[00:29:16] What design
[00:29:18] All the onboarding experience should be like all these things which
[00:29:22] I didn't have an understanding of because I'd never built a product before a tech product before so without that fundamental
[00:29:29] Uh, grass with the the key concepts
[00:29:32] Then you're going to hit a limit sooner rather than later. So it makes total sense to get those in first as well
[00:29:39] Yeah, and what you're saying is interesting because I feel like there's like those key concepts
[00:29:44] There's obviously technical concepts, but then there's also a little bit of design a little bit product management
[00:29:50] Like when you're building a product and have those things there
[00:29:54] It's hard and it's all our there are professionals in each of those categories, but yeah. Yeah, it's important to get them
[00:30:02] Yeah, that's so so true because it's like
[00:30:05] It's the classic thing
[00:30:07] Sure, there is no code involved
[00:30:10] But there's that kind of classic treat was there's no code
[00:30:12] But actually that doesn't mean there's no design no marketing no product management
[00:30:16] All of the things that come with actually building a tech product. Yeah
[00:30:20] And definitely do you have examples maybe of some
[00:30:23] tech products that were built
[00:30:26] as part of the
[00:30:28] The 100 days or maybe after by the aluminize
[00:30:31] Yeah, um, so I guess one one example that just just comes to mind and it's kind of a good
[00:30:38] example of
[00:30:40] What no code is all about?
[00:30:42] Is and you probably saw them the badge unicorn guys
[00:30:47] So badge unicorn the product studio that kind of built bad business ideas every two weeks. Yeah. Yeah, I remember them. Yeah
[00:30:53] Yeah, the tweets were hilarious
[00:30:57] Yeah, um, so they they set out the intention to to build something
[00:31:02] Um, namely a bad business idea every two weeks and they were able to to work at that
[00:31:09] Speed because they were purely using loco tools. Um
[00:31:13] And some weeks said they would build chatbots other weeks had built marketplaces
[00:31:20] Or kind of mobile apps
[00:31:23] But it was a real demonstration of
[00:31:25] Kind of the merry-go-round of all the different almost things that you can build with no code across different tools
[00:31:31] In that time frame as well
[00:31:33] And the best way to kind of visualize what you can build with no code is almost looking at their sites because that's what they
[00:31:40] Built across that spectrum in such a short period of time. Um, so I definitely recommend looking at those guys
[00:31:46] Okay, cool
[00:31:51] What's maybe before we talk a little bit about how you work, um, what's the the roadmap? What's the coming on?
[00:31:59] 400 days of no code. Yeah, um, so
[00:32:03] I've been interested to see how you're thinking about AI
[00:32:06] Um, but one of the the things that we've been thinking about is
[00:32:12] Okay, so no code is great. Um
[00:32:16] An AI is also really powerful
[00:32:19] But how do we help people leverage both of these things together? Um because
[00:32:25] naturally they're going to converge
[00:32:27] um and
[00:32:29] What does that look like from a building experience when these two things are together?
[00:32:34] Because it's slightly different to just visual development. It is visual development conversational development and
[00:32:42] Code development, but also generated
[00:32:45] All in one. Um, so it's there's more layers to that building process now and we've been trying to think about okay
[00:32:51] How do we help people?
[00:32:54] Navigate that landscape and build in a
[00:32:57] A faster
[00:32:59] More powerful more flexible way thanks to AI and no code together
[00:33:03] How are you thinking about it?
[00:33:06] I think it's um
[00:33:09] I think part of the future of no code is AI. I think I think AI is the
[00:33:15] the
[00:33:16] The extra boost that is going to take the no code movement, I would say to the level of
[00:33:23] Technical things that you can do as with code, which is almost no limits pretty much. Yeah
[00:33:31] That that's what I think but I think we're very early also
[00:33:33] Yes, and I think actually we
[00:33:35] And some people have read that some people are saying that we are already out of the hype cycle of the AI
[00:33:41] So yes now a thing is going to be interesting. It's going to quiet down
[00:33:44] And we're gonna have time to kind of see how it fits
[00:33:48] Um
[00:33:49] But it is it is very important. I think you posted something about it on linkedin now a few days ago how
[00:33:55] You felt like your team needed to to
[00:33:58] Learn more about it now. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Definitely. Yeah, I think it's uh
[00:34:03] It's important that's I think where we are. I think it's I don't think it's important to rush into
[00:34:08] Doing a course or this kind of thing. I mean that that is that's what we're doing
[00:34:13] Yes, but we did enough so we produced some content around AI. So yeah
[00:34:18] And now we're following and see how it goes with the yes
[00:34:21] And I guess it's it's when we speak about one
[00:34:24] We're kind of also speaking about the other because it's rolled into one. So
[00:34:28] um
[00:34:31] And just the looking at tools like zappia
[00:34:35] Or uh, bardeen or or even kind of framer
[00:34:39] They're just adding elements of AI into your existing workflows just to speed up what you already do so
[00:34:47] You're you're teaching the same outputs
[00:34:50] But there are just slightly
[00:34:52] Different ways of getting there with AI that we're starting to see in the tools as you say
[00:34:57] It's not fully imagined fleshed out, but we're starting to see little bits and pieces in those tools
[00:35:03] with AI
[00:35:05] Yeah, I think
[00:35:06] Like people are very focused on chai gpt right now for instance
[00:35:10] Which I agree is fascinating
[00:35:12] But I think it's even more interesting to be able to use
[00:35:16] The open AI APIs using make or zapier
[00:35:19] So that's one thing like automating AI. I think is the true next level
[00:35:25] But as you were you're talking I was thinking actually maybe
[00:35:29] That we won't even have to really use AI because as you said, there will be integrated into the tools
[00:35:34] Yes
[00:35:35] And like if you see already zappia I think zappia is the tool that has the most advanced
[00:35:40] Uh
[00:35:41] Integration, I mean they have close partnership. I guess we open AI
[00:35:45] They are they have their own AI by zappier. I don't know what's under maybe it's open AI
[00:35:50] But it's like a level of abstraction
[00:35:52] You can generate code in the code steps of zappier with AI so
[00:35:57] Yeah, I guess you might have to learn how to prompt but really it's like you're going to be in context
[00:36:01] You don't have to go to chat gpt to do the things you're not going to be
[00:36:05] Yeah, and that's I think that's the exciting thing is it's it's all in one building experience. Um
[00:36:11] So it's it's kind of you go into a tool
[00:36:15] You may prompt initially like build my site map for me based on this criteria or build my
[00:36:24] Build my database schema based on these requirements and then
[00:36:30] Then there's kind of the layer of the visual way, okay
[00:36:32] It's giving me a start. It's giving me a starting point now
[00:36:36] Let's kind of customize this a bit. Okay. I've done a bit of customization. Let's go back and prompt a little more
[00:36:41] So it's just back and forth and then on top of it
[00:36:45] If you need that custom injection of code
[00:36:49] Then as you say like zappier adding
[00:36:51] They're writing the code for you like yeah, there's that layer as well. You can exploit so
[00:36:56] It's all wrapped in this one build experience
[00:36:58] Which I think as you say takes no code beyond what it could have been before
[00:37:03] No, I think it's really exciting and like for instance, I'm really surprised that
[00:37:08] Your table for instance that hasn't announced yet what you were saying because for me it seems
[00:37:13] It's probably not easy to do but like you write a few sentences and you get
[00:37:18] three four tables that that you know
[00:37:21] Modellize like the schema of what you you wrote or so?
[00:37:24] Yeah, that's exactly what I think would be a big benefit because I think they announced something
[00:37:29] Like you can use AI into your fields
[00:37:33] Just to generate content, which is a thing of pretty basic use
[00:37:37] Or generating formulas also would be great. Yeah, you can already do it in chat gpt
[00:37:42] But sometimes you make mistakes. Yeah
[00:37:45] While they have all the data they have thousands of formulas that people have written
[00:37:49] So they must be able to train a model. I don't know maybe no, I will probably do it but
[00:37:54] Yeah, I you wonder on some of these bigger tools
[00:37:59] What they're cooking up
[00:38:02] So yeah, it'd be interesting to see because sometimes you feel like oh, they're slow and but then all of a sudden you have
[00:38:08] You know, they didn't say anything but there was actually a lot of people working on the yeah
[00:38:12] Just like when notion announced
[00:38:14] By notion with no one saw it coming. It came out of nowhere. Yeah, exactly. I feel like they were a bit
[00:38:20] They kind of missed their launch because it was almost at the same time as I don't know chat gpt
[00:38:26] Which version or something? I think I feel like there was a yes an overlap kind of miss
[00:38:30] It's actually we haven't talked about any tools per se. I haven't asked you
[00:38:36] Like almost 40 minutes and we didn't mention any tools
[00:38:39] Just to go back on the intro dates of knockout what what tools people are learning is there
[00:38:45] Is it more like free? Is it like uh, yeah, um, so we
[00:38:49] We do often take quite a tool agnostic approach
[00:38:54] because
[00:38:56] We want or we find that tools
[00:39:00] differ in in the sense of
[00:39:04] How compatible
[00:39:05] They are for each person
[00:39:07] Someone may find web flow very intuitive
[00:39:10] Over another website building tool just because of the way they learn
[00:39:13] So we try and keep it reasonably tool agnostic to give people optionality
[00:39:17] But then we also try and guide them so that they don't
[00:39:20] Go into tools. They're a little bit beyond their level
[00:39:24] Um, so we always kind of start or have recently started with
[00:39:29] five tools that we try and
[00:39:31] help people
[00:39:32] Build from and the idea being that we're not really teaching those tools specifically
[00:39:37] We're actually just teaching them so you gain these transferable skills that you can then apply in any tool you want
[00:39:42] so
[00:39:43] Those look like and I often forget the five because there's always one missing but
[00:39:47] those look like notion which we've talked about for kind of general like
[00:39:52] organization and um project management, etc
[00:39:56] air table for your databases
[00:39:58] softer for those kind of simple web apps
[00:40:01] Zappier to kind of automate what you're doing and then glide
[00:40:06] As kind of that mobile layer and then with those five tools you can build 90 percent of things and then of course
[00:40:12] You can take the skills you've learned out of that basic building blocks of building anything
[00:40:17] And then apply them to more complex tools as you go. So that's how we we do it
[00:40:21] Cool. Yeah, I think it's a very interesting approach and
[00:40:25] I think and so it makes sense that we didn't really talk too much about tools before but no
[00:40:28] But I think it's great because as we're saying right before recording
[00:40:32] I think we're sometimes too focused on the tools themselves and those the shiny tools and the new ones and
[00:40:38] Yeah, I think it's different because I really think everyone needs to to look into it. But
[00:40:45] Yeah, and so so do you have any plans around AI yet or just exploring and
[00:40:50] Maybe you don't want to share it. No, no, no, no, of course. Yeah, it is funny
[00:40:54] I laugh just because
[00:40:55] Finally out of the more existential phase of thinking around it
[00:41:00] And now kind of seeing it as we've discussed as a as a real benefit to to no code
[00:41:05] And seeing the two combined is this like superhuman
[00:41:10] Sort of machine
[00:41:11] Which is really exciting. Whereas I think initially when AI came out
[00:41:15] I almost was seeing it as a negative potentially for no code
[00:41:18] But I think now after reading learning and seeing what's possible
[00:41:23] I think it will only
[00:41:24] benefit no code in terms of what we're doing
[00:41:27] So we have a no code times AI bootcamp that is coming around the corner and
[00:41:33] We are we are kind of
[00:41:36] Which has evolved from just the no code bootcamp
[00:41:40] And that is as mentioned helping people leverage both of these things together
[00:41:46] And then separately which I've actually just launched today
[00:41:50] Is this 100 days of AI
[00:41:53] So
[00:41:54] Okay
[00:41:55] Basically helping people learn
[00:41:58] AI skills just in the way that we have helped people learn no code schools on a daily basis
[00:42:05] And specifically we've kind of got a
[00:42:07] B2C version where anyone can do it like for the hobbyists for the creator and then a B2B version
[00:42:14] So for companies that as we were saying
[00:42:17] They want to put their team through it and kind of get that level of output that they couldn't beforehand
[00:42:23] Where they can kind of grow their their head their
[00:42:26] Grow without growing their head count
[00:42:30] Then that's a path for them. So thinking about it in that way still early, but
[00:42:35] Trying to
[00:42:37] Yeah, help people get on boarded in in these in the space
[00:42:40] Cool. Well looking forward to to see what you but people will be building and
[00:42:46] And see all this on the on twitter on x. Yeah. Yeah, exactly
[00:42:53] We've just just a few minutes
[00:42:56] Tell me about
[00:42:58] Outside of the of your community that you built
[00:43:02] I would say more locally. Have you
[00:43:05] What's your feeling with I would say maybe first like London as a city regarding maybe no code but also take in general
[00:43:12] Do you go to meetups? What's the
[00:43:15] What do you find here?
[00:43:16] Yeah, um, so I've been guilty of not going to many meetups
[00:43:20] But I think that was because of kind of the the post
[00:43:23] So lockdown getting a bit used to being inside
[00:43:26] The transition is weird. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I I didn't kind of move into that ecosystem that early
[00:43:34] but there's definitely lots of like
[00:43:36] smaller no code gatherings not on the scale of the no code summit
[00:43:41] happening in Paris
[00:43:43] But smaller kind of meetups
[00:43:47] and
[00:43:48] Do you do like
[00:43:50] In-person meetups for the 100 days of
[00:43:54] Should be doing them. Um, and it's it's
[00:43:57] Definitely something we should
[00:43:59] Or will want to start doing soon. Um, so yeah, what's the space on that one?
[00:44:05] Um, but yeah, it's it's a it's a good ecosystem to be part of
[00:44:09] Okay, right
[00:44:12] Last question two questions
[00:44:15] Do you what do you what one thing instead of related to no code at all?
[00:44:20] But just one thing that you like to do in London that you would recommend to someone who's visiting
[00:44:26] But you'd like to do yourself not like going to the london eye or something. Yeah, yeah, unless you really like to do
[00:44:33] Yes, so I would first thing london eye magic
[00:44:37] Um, so what would I recommend? Um
[00:44:42] Just thinking because generally
[00:44:46] Because you're not doing the touristy things
[00:44:48] Um, it's not london specific. So for example, I do lots of tennis
[00:44:53] I would recommend people do tennis here, but they can do it in paris as well. So
[00:44:57] Maybe there is something specific here
[00:45:00] I would I would actually if you're here in the summer, I would go to to wimbledon
[00:45:04] Okay, um, so I'd visit because
[00:45:07] What you get is you get the the the british culture and everything about that and it's all
[00:45:13] Fully kind of visible there, but then you also get great tennis. Um, so I'd go go go to that if you can okay cool
[00:45:20] a good recommendation
[00:45:23] And so where last last thing where people can can follow you
[00:45:26] Where do you so obviously on twitter? But just yeah one previous question sometimes. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're good
[00:45:31] But do you document um also what you're doing? I mean like the way you're building
[00:45:37] More like, you know, like your company, I guess maybe on linkedin or
[00:45:42] Little bit on linkedin. Um, I want to share more. Um, because I think it's just interesting for other
[00:45:48] Tiny companies to see how others are building. Um, and it'd be great to be great to hear like
[00:45:55] On your side as well. How how you guys are doing it? Um
[00:45:59] So a bit on linkedin. Um, but generally, yeah, I split 50 50
[00:46:04] time on linkedin and then twitter so you can just find me on um
[00:46:08] At Haining max on on twitter. I will put the links in the show notes. Perfect. Um, so yeah, um
[00:46:17] And that's that's where I'm hanging out really and trying to to share building public a bit more
[00:46:22] Okay, no newsletter
[00:46:24] We've got a got a newsletter but not not a personal not a yeah
[00:46:28] Yeah, but you have one for yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that that's that's the only place where we really document and share
[00:46:36] Like we do but I'm not very comfortable with like social media
[00:46:39] I do it because we have to everyone's it's important for the visibility and kind of like it sometimes but
[00:46:45] But yeah, but our newsletter we try to almost every week have
[00:46:49] share something
[00:46:51] personal but like
[00:46:53] company level like the back stories kind of thing
[00:46:56] I think people like that. I wish we were better at
[00:46:59] Instagram and to do photos more like everything but you guys are good on youtube though, aren't you?
[00:47:04] You've got some youtube presents and yeah, we a little less now, but yeah, we we did a lot on youtube but more like, you know
[00:47:11] Tutorials this kind of things got you got you like never really managed to turn into like youtubers really got you. Yeah
[00:47:19] But maybe that will come I like the podcast actually from my format of I would say is more the podcast and you know the conversation
[00:47:26] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's a nice intimate intimate format. So yeah, exactly. Yeah
[00:47:31] Well, thank you so much for your time and
[00:47:34] Let's I'm curious to see next time we'll have a chance to talk for sure. Thanks so much for having me. Yes, been really fun
[00:47:46] What a great conversation again
[00:47:48] Very happy to have a chance to meet with max. It was very cool setting actually
[00:47:53] This air see a place and I really like the the exchange. I mean, it's it's always great to meet
[00:47:59] fellow knock-outters and especially
[00:48:02] people went through the same thing of discovering knock-out during the pandemic and having you know common relations and
[00:48:10] Similar vision. So I really enjoyed. I hope you also enjoyed and for me, it's now time to take my train
[00:48:17] I'm gonna add to St. Pancras to catch my train. It was a great week in London
[00:48:22] I'm very happy. I had a chance to produce those four
[00:48:25] Episodes I hope you like them too if you did please share this podcast with
[00:48:30] two people of
[00:48:32] Who are interested in knockout you could share them with anyone you want but really I think
[00:48:37] They're especially interesting for people who are in knockout and there are more and more people around knockout
[00:48:42] You should get all your friends to to get into those knockout tools because they are usage, I think for pretty much everyone
[00:48:49] And hopefully you will hear me soon
[00:48:52] In a new season. I don't know where it's gonna be
[00:48:55] I know the knockout summit is going is going to be in europe in paris in october
[00:49:01] I live in paris, of course. I'm gonna be at the summit
[00:49:03] It will be probably the opportunity for me to meet some very interesting foreign people. So there might be some
[00:49:09] interviews
[00:49:10] Opportunities so maybe that will be a bit of a different season where instead of traveling somewhere people will travel to me
[00:49:17] Yes, they travel of course for the summit, but maybe they also come to to see me a little bit
[00:49:23] I mean after all I started this french knockout community and it's one of the reasons why there is a summit in france
[00:49:29] Um, but yes, let's see. I don't want to to seem like it's all about me
[00:49:34] Um, anyways, thank you for listening for still being here after all those episodes after this long
[00:49:40] outro
[00:49:41] I'm looking forward for the next conversation on knockout world radio