#15: in Chiang Mai, Sarkis explains how he became a problem solver and why he pushed the limits of webflow

[00:00:00] Welcome to the No-Code World Radio Podcast, I'm Alex Horost and this is the one and only episode of The Season 5.

[00:00:07] After spending a few weeks traveling in Thailand and Cambodia, I'm finally in Chiang Mai for about 10 days.

[00:00:14] And one of the reasons I came here is that it's the home of a fascinating character of the No-Code community.

[00:00:21] You've probably heard of some of his work, like the PlayStation Interface, he entirely recreated using Webflow or even more amazing, the Civilization 26 project.

[00:00:32] Of course I'm talking about the one and only Sako aka Sarkis Bune Asian and I'm super excited to meet him.

[00:00:40] I haven't brought much audio equipment with me on this trip so this won't be the usual format, it won't be a conversation but more of a portrait.

[00:00:50] Let's go.

[00:00:53] My name is Sarkis Bune Asian, I'm in Chiang Mai.

[00:00:56] I've lived here for a few years and I have made product design for the last 15 years.

[00:01:06] From five onwards, my dad introduced me to all kinds of software and I just loved visual editing, music editing.

[00:01:16] I wanted to find my niche, like what am I going to focus on and to me software was the perfect place to be because I could create the most impact.

[00:01:23] And also I knew that financially speaking that was also the best career path.

[00:01:28] So I traveled a lot since I was young, I think when I was one, I'm origin from Armenia.

[00:01:33] So I traveled to India, lived there for many years and then to the States, to Europe and so on and so forth.

[00:01:38] So I changed a lot of schools, I got to meet a lot of cultures and over time I realized every when it just always came back to the digital world.

[00:01:47] And you know, I would say in mid 2000s like it was very clear that if you're not on the web, you're already behind.

[00:01:56] So I needed to figure out how do I approach my industry?

[00:02:01] Like there's a lot of things you could do on the web.

[00:02:03] So I knew that I didn't want to rely on other designers and developers.

[00:02:08] I had to be using software that just let me do it myself.

[00:02:12] And back then, I would say 2013, 2014, you know, very early on, it wasn't clear that Webflow or Squarespace earned these tools could actually do that.

[00:02:20] It was still very early but in 2016 like when I really looked at saw Webflow for the first time, it was like an open canvas.

[00:02:28] And I knew that it was because sort of like Photoshop for the Web.

[00:02:31] I just put anything and just bring it to life.

[00:02:33] And so that's when I really knew that I could focus on that area, on a personal level.

[00:02:40] But at the same time, I was already building my first couple of companies at that point.

[00:02:44] My passion isn't really focusing on one particular technology or the other.

[00:02:49] It's about solving problems.

[00:02:51] And so I've been able to solve problems in a few industries.

[00:02:54] And I kind of use what I learned in product design generally speaking to apply the same methodologies to other industries, whether it's in food, whether it's in tech, wherever it is.

[00:03:05] But my main focus is on tech.

[00:03:07] From the type of creative that I am, I need to be able to visualize my ideas quickly.

[00:03:11] And with code, it just felt like I would get stuck in tunnel vision.

[00:03:15] I'm trying to solve this one problem in code when my brain is already racing to 15 other problems that could be solving.

[00:03:23] So I kind of a choice early on in my career where it's like you can either become a really great developer or really great designer.

[00:03:29] You can do both and I envy the people that can.

[00:03:34] As you can imagine, I was very excited to talk about no good tools in Webflow with psycho.

[00:03:41] And I asked him, what's his vision of no code and to tell me a bit more about what he did using those tools.

[00:03:51] I didn't know code, I explored it but my focus was entirely on design on product design.

[00:03:57] I loved software, I loved games, I loved just being able to have an idea and just bring it to life instantly myself.

[00:04:05] The thing with no code is it is a gateway into code.

[00:04:11] The more you do no code tools, the more you get encouraged to try JavaScript and some hacks and whatever.

[00:04:16] And next thing you know you actually quit no code in your code or now, you just enjoy development.

[00:04:20] So it was same thing for me.

[00:04:22] Like when I first started using no code tools, it was purely for design purposes.

[00:04:26] And a few hacks here and there but after a while I realized like many of my projects are now 30-40% code.

[00:04:33] You know, either I write some of it myself or generate it or work with our developers but it's just become very clear that the problem wasn't code or no code or design.

[00:04:44] The problem was making people comfortable enough to approach these technologies.

[00:04:49] No code tools have always been considered a gimmick even today.

[00:04:54] They still are looked down by coders and even designers in general because they compare it with template builders like Squarespace.

[00:05:03] They don't understand that these are full visual development environments.

[00:05:08] And so when I looked at no code, I realized there is a gaping hole of examples.

[00:05:14] People don't really understand how far you can go with them.

[00:05:17] So in 2020, until 2020 I wasn't really public with any of my work.

[00:05:22] I had my own clients and my company, I was focused on that.

[00:05:25] But in 2020 I end up 2020 I realized like we need to really demonstrate these tools.

[00:05:31] And I thought what is something I could build?

[00:05:33] This was yeah this was January 2020.

[00:05:36] I asked myself like what could I build that would make even a developer confused.

[00:05:41] And that was the PlayStation project.

[00:05:43] And that was built in five days.

[00:05:45] So that already made a statement of this is not a gimmick.

[00:05:50] You know you can't build this in WordPress, you can't build this in Squarespace.

[00:05:53] Like let's set the bar a little higher.

[00:05:58] It was the entire PlayStation.

[00:06:00] The whole software.

[00:06:01] Full interface.

[00:06:02] It was so realistic that you know we've always worried that Sony might get involved and start you know.

[00:06:09] There might be copyright claims and everything else.

[00:06:12] And that's totally fair because when you use it, you can't tell the difference.

[00:06:16] It's pixel perfect.

[00:06:18] So for me it was also it was an exercise in understanding how far I can take my own skills.

[00:06:23] Like can I actually build anything in a web flow?

[00:06:27] And I was able to.

[00:06:28] So first it was the PlayStation.

[00:06:30] And then Vlad was kind enough to the founder of Webflow was kind enough to share it.

[00:06:34] And that's how most people found out about me.

[00:06:36] And then I went to my sort of viral moment in No Code.

[00:06:39] And then a few months later, built the first game.

[00:06:42] After that just sort of progressively went into civilization where I thought okay.

[00:06:47] Like what if we could build a project that really pushed it all the way to the line?

[00:06:54] Civilization to me was also an experiment on understanding like is Webflow really as powerful as I think it is?

[00:07:02] I never built anything of that scale.

[00:07:04] It took about three weeks in total, but it was 400 interactions, thousands of elements all running on a single page.

[00:07:12] So if there are any civilization fans out there.

[00:07:15] Civilization 6 has about 46, 47 leaders, individual characters, players they can choose from.

[00:07:21] I put all of them there.

[00:07:23] Their maps, their soundtracks, their everything and Webflow handled all of it.

[00:07:29] And that was where I really, I made a statement for myself that No Code tools have really come up very long way since 2016.

[00:07:37] You can never build that in 2016.

[00:07:39] It would have crashed.

[00:07:40] But with this time, I was very proud of that project because it actually encouraged a lot of people to get into No Code.

[00:07:48] They weren't asking how did you build this with Webflow.

[00:07:51] They were saying, how did you build this at all?

[00:07:55] So it already changed the debate.

[00:07:58] That was my goal with it was don't do this No Code versus Code debate.

[00:08:02] Think of it as a browser.

[00:08:04] It's just a website.

[00:08:05] Ask yourself how, what tool?

[00:08:08] It doesn't matter if you code it manually or design it.

[00:08:11] Look at the complexity of this project and appreciate that.

[00:08:15] And then you can ask yourself, should I code it or not code it or whatever it is, right?

[00:08:20] But every debate started with No Code versus Code.

[00:08:24] So you have to build a monument like the Eiffel Tower where it's like they just look at this and they're like,

[00:08:29] okay, this is clearly impressive.

[00:08:31] Let's go talk about how I can be part of that.

[00:08:35] And then a couple of years later, I found out that there are people who start entire agencies because they saw that project.

[00:08:40] It was very humbling for me.

[00:08:41] And I was like, okay, so that was my success.

[00:08:43] That's what I wanted.

[00:08:44] But most of all, I just, I wanted people to stop just building landing pages.

[00:08:49] I was like, listen, if you can build an entire game inside of a browser, you can definitely build products.

[00:08:55] You can build applications.

[00:08:56] It's not just showcase e-commerce type of websites.

[00:09:00] And I did see a shift in the attitude.

[00:09:03] But after a while, I also saw a lot of saturation.

[00:09:06] So that's my biggest problem with No Code today is that there's just so much of the repetitive kind of websites and projects that

[00:09:14] all the inspiring stuff that's happening is getting drowned.

[00:09:18] So when someone goes into the Webflow showcase, for example, what they're seeing is the majority of the thing they're seeing is those early stage projects.

[00:09:27] So they assume this is just like Squarespace.

[00:09:30] And so it's kind of, I told the Webflow team, I was like, you guys need to find a way to promote not just socialization.

[00:09:36] There's so many projects like that by people, my peers and my betters that they don't get enough exposure.

[00:09:43] So in a way, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

[00:09:46] It's what we were discussing earlier about like everything has to have its purpose.

[00:09:50] You have to designate. You have to be very clear about what you are.

[00:09:54] So Webflow, I feel like for a long time has treated itself as a website, kind of standard website builder.

[00:10:01] And I'd remind them all the time. It's not WebSiteFlow. It's Webflow.

[00:10:05] It's a canvas. Why don't you encourage people to think openly when they come into your product?

[00:10:10] But even the tutorials, they sort of put you into this rabbit hole and to get in where it's like,

[00:10:17] this is really what you should be doing.

[00:10:19] But nowhere do you talk about how complex and how beautiful these projects can become.

[00:10:25] So you're sort of depending on the community to create these sort of iconic examples.

[00:10:32] But then you don't do enough with those examples to promote them.

[00:10:35] Like, how amazing would it be if the first time you start a Webflow?

[00:10:39] It said, what do you want to build? It said, website app miscellaneous.

[00:10:44] And you click on miscellaneous and it gives you examples of like, this is how far you can go.

[00:10:48] People's impression immediately would change.

[00:10:51] But when the main reason they come there is because some client just needs a website, that's what they think it is.

[00:10:57] And I'll just say one last thing on this is that even though like there's no difference in the way that civilization is built

[00:11:04] and a regular website is built. It's the same div blocks, it's the same absolute positioning, whatever.

[00:11:09] But I would even talk to some of my peers and they would say like, I don't know how you did that.

[00:11:13] Like, that's a weird thing to say.

[00:11:15] It's the same principles that you use every day.

[00:11:18] Like, why is it that you look at this project and it just sort of you black out?

[00:11:25] And then I realize it's not, it's not their fault.

[00:11:28] It's actually because of the way the platform, the way you think of the platform.

[00:11:32] When you put yourself creatively into a box, it's hard for you to imagine how something would fit into your box.

[00:11:39] So this is why I tell everybody like, when you look at a website of any kind, it's just a box inside of a box inside of a box.

[00:11:46] And then you're just moving it around.

[00:11:48] When I explain that people start to think differently.

[00:11:51] So in a way the whole journey of a no-coder is how to get out of the box ironically and start to just think of everything as literally just elements on a single box.

[00:12:01] But right now what I'm seeing with a lot of people what they're doing is and the way the tutorials are training them is to think in sections.

[00:12:08] I put the first section then I SEO and this other thing.

[00:12:13] And for me, the project starts with nothing.

[00:12:16] I just want to put all my ideas on that canvas and see what happens.

[00:12:19] So like if you think in a site map kind of layout, civilization will never fit there.

[00:12:24] But the fact that those hundreds of screens are all stacked on top of each other in one layout.

[00:12:32] It breaks all the norms of web design, but it is web design.

[00:12:36] It's the same with height pixels, whatever. Same thing.

[00:12:41] For me, the complication was making it pixel perfect because I had to screenshot all the elements from the actual game one by one.

[00:12:50] The cursors, the real thing was just stacking it and being able to remember what leads to what?

[00:12:58] Because that's why I had to do it every day.

[00:13:01] If you stopped doing it for a week remembering the whole structure would be a nightmare.

[00:13:07] But I would say the only complication was managing that many elements and knowing how they fit together and keeping track of it.

[00:13:16] The way I got through it is turning everything into a component.

[00:13:20] So individual components that are just, they appear and disappear on click.

[00:13:24] Instead of looking at it as just all of these thousands of things on sort of an equal plane, if you will.

[00:13:31] So for example, loading screens, that's one component.

[00:13:34] Stack it, put in a folder there.

[00:13:36] Then we have these pop ups. There's like seven or eight of them.

[00:13:39] Individual.

[00:13:41] Where it really got strange was when I looked at the leader screens, I said, okay, how many playable leaders are there?

[00:13:49] I was like 46.

[00:13:50] Should I just do one or do I do all of them?

[00:13:53] And then when I said all of them, I was like, all right, now you're really just, now you're pushing it.

[00:13:58] So I thought I might lose my train of thought at that point but I was able to keep it together.

[00:14:03] Just put all the leaders in the folders and everything else.

[00:14:05] But really, if you think about it, the real exercise with no code is managing classes and managing layouts.

[00:14:12] That's it.

[00:14:13] So if you have an efficient way of doing this and naming things, you'll never get lost.

[00:14:17] But with many of these, yeah, organization is everything.

[00:14:21] That's why a lot of people, I would say nine times out of ten every client that came to me at an existing project,

[00:14:27] they came to me because the previous person didn't organize it well enough and they're lost and they changed something, whatever.

[00:14:32] So I feel like now only really this year has organization become a topic in the no-code community.

[00:14:39] You know, with FinSuite attributes and classes and everything else.

[00:14:42] Yes, before that it was like any methodology works.

[00:14:45] I can just name my thing, div block 278.

[00:14:51] And you're no longer just impressed by what you could make.

[00:14:53] There was too much of that.

[00:14:54] Like look at me, mom, I can make a gallery page or a landing page.

[00:14:57] It's like, can we stop being impressed with these things?

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] Like it's pretty obvious how easy it is to do them now.

[00:15:05] But because it's so easy, it's actually harder to make a product because now you have to stand out.

[00:15:11] There's so much saturation now that your work is no longer valued by speed, it's valued by quality.

[00:15:19] So for example, one project that I did, it was one page but it took one year because that's so much detail and like it became a beautiful experience.

[00:15:28] But it took a long time to really get there.

[00:15:31] But then you have people who just built something in a day and it's on product hunt.

[00:15:35] I'm like, who are you impressing?

[00:15:37] Is it a long-term product?

[00:15:39] It takes a month just to understand the problem.

[00:15:41] But you're already on product tons after two or three days.

[00:15:44] You know, so I feel like there's a lot of this trying to prove yourself which is a good thing.

[00:15:48] I think everyone needs to strive.

[00:15:50] But when you have a platform or an ecosystem that encourages shortcuts.

[00:15:55] I don't think of Wepplow as a shortcut to web design.

[00:15:58] I think of it as an efficient method of web design.

[00:16:01] So a lot of people when they build their thinking in terms of just how quickly can I do it and make money?

[00:16:07] So I want them to stop worrying about speed and start worrying about, okay if everyone's doing it this way, how can I do it differently?

[00:16:15] And that's why when I see and I encourage, I love these libraries, we're loom and all of these things that are happening.

[00:16:20] But it also encourages laziness.

[00:16:22] You know, let me just slap as many of these components together and just publish it.

[00:16:26] Someone said they built five websites in a week.

[00:16:28] And I'm like, no you didn't.

[00:16:30] You use templates.

[00:16:32] You didn't really build it.

[00:16:34] You slapped most of the components and then just styled it.

[00:16:37] That's not the same.

[00:16:38] So I feel like we need to kind of raise the bar a little bit as a community and figure out what's good for us and what's not.

[00:16:46] If we create these kind of habits and we encourage it and we even give out awards to people who do this kind of work, now what you're saying is,

[00:16:55] it doesn't matter how you get there.

[00:16:57] Just you're rewarded for the end product.

[00:17:00] But I think how you get there is everything.

[00:17:03] I think it impacts the creativity of the user.

[00:17:05] Like think about most of the websites you see. It's the same structure.

[00:17:09] Cover, hero section, video, play button, whatever.

[00:17:12] It's the same thing recycled over and over again because a lot of the people in no code are not designers either.

[00:17:19] They are creatives, but they think their approach to designing is essentially components.

[00:17:27] So if you told them I want you to go on a blank canvas and create a website, it would take weeks just drawing it out creating it whatever is right.

[00:17:37] So I feel like we need to encourage better healthier habits in design in general and figure out what's actually hurting us as a community.

[00:17:44] I think, for example, the showcase not being well curated is a very big problem because if I don't know anything about no code and the first thing I see is that I assume that everyone in no code is just people taking shortcuts.

[00:17:57] So impressions are dangerous.

[00:17:59] It's one of the main reasons I build this stuff I do is I want to change the impression.

[00:18:03] So it might take a little longer to build, but when it comes out, it defies gravity.

[00:18:10] And that's what got me excited about no code tools as I saw other people do something in web design that I knew would take tens of thousands of dollars to do.

[00:18:18] And they did it themselves alone. I have to try no code.

[00:18:24] But I also knew Sarkis was a very multi-talented entrepreneur.

[00:18:29] So I was really curious to get to know a bit more about his other projects because, of course, while all this web flow stuff is fascinating, I took the chance to get to know a bit more about everything else he did and how it all falls into one entire vision of entrepreneurship and technology.

[00:18:48] My very first company was an AI, actually when I was 25, 26.

[00:18:52] I spent about my early, most of my 20s on that business and I ended up raising investment for the first company.

[00:18:59] I actually used no code tools to create a prototype of the first-platf in your building.

[00:19:02] But the idea there was I wanted to find a better way of bringing information to you.

[00:19:07] The technology needed that app had to understand you well enough that when you traveled wherever you went, it understood what you needed before you did.

[00:19:15] And so it was kind of like the earlier version of what, like Google and many of these other companies ended up doing.

[00:19:20] But I realized like the way people engage with the world around them was broken.

[00:19:25] It was just information. There was content but no context.

[00:19:28] So we were building a whole application around contextualizing the world around you and feeding you what you needed exactly at the right time.

[00:19:37] And we could only do that if we had an understanding of your own personal life.

[00:19:41] So tying together your technologies or softer your applications in a smart way in a really simple format.

[00:19:46] And so that was my first company and then really worked out.

[00:19:50] It actually started in Chiang Mai, like when we raised our investment.

[00:19:53] But in the end we tried traveling out, tried to go to Europe, ended up getting stuck in Armenia, didn't get developers in time.

[00:20:01] So it's over just after two years. It was a time to pivot.

[00:20:05] But at the same time, I was solving a problem in the restaurant business.

[00:20:08] Like here in Chiang Mai we realized that a lot of the food that's coming in is just imports.

[00:20:14] So I thought what if there's their way for us to work directly with the local market?

[00:20:19] And so we created a franchise where you could combine delicacies and a wrap.

[00:20:23] It became a wrap master.

[00:20:26] And we had like three or four restaurants and it became a really fun business.

[00:20:29] So we solved the problem where we thought okay, can you take fast food as a concept and make it fast fresh?

[00:20:34] And it was a whole new approach to it and it became until today a fan favorite in the community.

[00:20:41] And I finally asked him what is he currently working on?

[00:20:45] My main focus right now is coming to called ReStep.

[00:20:48] What ReStep does is it really wants to change the way you learn.

[00:20:53] So what it's doing is it's through our Chrome extension we're able to capture your entire workflow.

[00:20:59] Your clicks, your keystrokes and the sequence.

[00:21:01] And then you can take that and share it with anyone.

[00:21:04] And on their device they can repeat the entire workflow.

[00:21:07] You can literally take my knowledge and give it to someone else.

[00:21:11] So for example in let's say a webflow project.

[00:21:14] How do you learn no-code tools today? Videos?

[00:21:17] Yeah.

[00:21:18] You don't have to watch videos anymore.

[00:21:19] It can literally guide you step by step through my entire workflow.

[00:21:23] It highlights what you need to do.

[00:21:25] So you're learning by doing not by watching.

[00:21:28] So you can have the entire community top experts all take older projects, they're especially the advanced stuff and just give it to you perfectly.

[00:21:37] So you don't make any mistakes.

[00:21:38] You can learn it from start to finish.

[00:21:40] And that can apply to the entire web.

[00:21:42] So a ReStep has an open API.

[00:21:45] So now you can have GarageBand, Final Cut Pro, whatever it may be.

[00:21:49] Like right now we're recording a podcast, right?

[00:21:51] If you want to learn how do you do proper editing for that podcast.

[00:21:54] You would have to go read a book, watch a video, maybe orally pay someone to teach you.

[00:21:58] Now you can do that directly.

[00:22:00] So there's never been a time where you could actually transfer experience from one person to another.

[00:22:07] It was I can give it to you in a static form.

[00:22:11] But it sort of boils down to like what is more valuable the pyramids or how they were made.

[00:22:15] So we don't know how it was made.

[00:22:17] So now you're left with this one monolith and it's like we got to figure it out.

[00:22:20] Yes.

[00:22:21] So it's the same thing with no code tools in general.

[00:22:23] And I think that's the reason why so many people don't get into technologies because they just don't know where to start.

[00:22:29] But if you could open any application and say, I want to learn how to do this and it just start telling you, showing you.

[00:22:35] Click here now and click there.

[00:22:37] You can go through all those steps in matter of minutes.

[00:22:40] And then you can also click just automate and it just runs everything from start to finish in seconds for you.

[00:22:45] You look at that, you're like, now I know what to do.

[00:22:47] So you could pick some let you know, I love I come from musical artistic background my family.

[00:22:52] I would love to you know earlier on.

[00:22:55] I wish I would be able to just pick up Final Cut Pro or Logic Pro in this case.

[00:22:59] And it would just teach me how to put together a whole track from start to finish without me having to piece it together in my head

[00:23:06] by watching tutorials and whatever.

[00:23:08] You know, so that would have definitely my whole career could have changed.

[00:23:13] I might have been in music editing instead of product design if you just introduced me to it.

[00:23:19] So I feel like the biggest problem in learning in general is people just there's too much, too much of a hurdle, too many obstacles for me to just experience something.

[00:23:31] So it's much easier like if my dad introduces me to Photoshop he's showing me how to do it.

[00:23:36] Right? And now the irony is I'm helping him with Photoshop, you know, like you'll ask me questions all the time.

[00:23:43] And if he's not next to me I have to always like find a way to explain this call him explain imagine with rest of it.

[00:23:49] I just sent him one link and he clicks it and just fires up and shows him where to click on Photoshop.

[00:23:54] It's like my son is doing it for me on my device.

[00:24:02] We asked our own beta testers like what is it about the way you learn today that sucks.

[00:24:08] And they're like well, we watch our video, we pause it try to repeat it a little bit and then go watch it again and keep going back and forth.

[00:24:15] So it discourages you. I mean shout out to Joseph Barry one of my you know idols when he comes to interactions in Webflow he's a master, you know, a good friend.

[00:24:25] Joseph Barry did a eight hour course going through eight hours of video even from a master that you admire is tough.

[00:24:33] So I had friends who bought the course and they said after a month we've only gone through an hour of it.

[00:24:39] So there is a real blockade when it comes to learning either you are very serious about that software and you're ready to commit that kind of time or you're just going to over months and months gradually get that knowledge.

[00:24:53] But if I could guarantee that anybody that wants to teach something can get that knowledge across in a standardized way with clear descriptions that get translated into your own language.

[00:25:05] Imagine if I was doing my own workflow in a step, I save it and then it automatically is translated into French all the descriptions all the steps.

[00:25:14] So whether you're a visual learner, an interactive learner or a oral learner, you can actually learn anyway you like and that barrier to entry is nonexistent.

[00:25:25] But I would say probably the biggest problem right now is language just language alone.

[00:25:31] So when I say we're standardizing learning across the board, one of the biggest pieces is that you as a creator can focus on capturing your workflow and don't worry about the rest.

[00:25:42] Restep is going to chance it into 100 languages and now next thing you know you are actually a teacher and you have a new way of making money.

[00:25:50] So when you're in monetizing your own courses, sell them individually, you know the same hundreds of dollars that people sell their video courses for you could charge double that if you want it for a reset because you can infinitely redo this.

[00:26:04] You'll never get bored and if you have to go take a coffee, you don't have to pause your video, you just close your rest up, come back and continue.

[00:26:11] So over time we're going to find a way of really understanding what's wrong in general with people not being able to learn something and just break all those borders down one by one.

[00:26:22] So we've been working on it for about two, three years now, we're in beta right now and you know we've been talking to members stack for example and they said they want to replace their whole four with resteps.

[00:26:32] It's like a customer comes in and just asks the same questions. How do I reset my password? You know, how do I add a member?

[00:26:38] Just click this link and it starts doing it for you. Why would you ever go back to opening a book or looking at a video?

[00:26:50] A quivol that said what is his vision of the future?

[00:26:55] I don't focus on technologies. I think people that are designers will continue to design exactly as the way they are and those tools will just help them do it more efficiently.

[00:27:10] Chat GPT comes out before chat GPT I was still using code. I was using stack overflow as far as I was finding methods of coding through other mediums now chat GPT is here speeds it up a little bit for me, but that doesn't mean that it I'm a different designer now.

[00:27:25] I'm still the same product designer so I don't think it's the tool that makes you you make the tool and the problem with a lot of people in no code in general is that the tool is making them.

[00:27:38] So every time a no code tool comes out they just jump on the next shiny thing. They're not really committing to hey this is the kind of designer I want to be like am I a bubble developer or weftlo developer?

[00:27:49] There is a difference it is a very different approach to product design, but if you ask me what I am I'm not a weftlo developer I'm a product designer tomorrow if weftlo stops being useful for me and my clients.

[00:27:59] I stop using weftlo I move on to the next thing you know so I'm not I'm very agnostic when it comes to technology but where I think the no code space itself is going to go is pure visual development.

[00:28:12] I think that it's going to be a marriage of 50 50 marriage between design and code where if you are more of a coder, you can tailor the platform to your needs.

[00:28:23] It's not just like a little bit of custom code I'm talking you can tailor the whole experience if you're a designer then you can have support from the code side like AI can support you with integrating hacks integrating new additional custom code solutions that you need.

[00:28:39] So the no code space itself will stop being called no code it'll be visual development that's what it is instead of typing you're clicking that's all but everything being done is old code it's all being generated in the background for you.

[00:28:53] So I definitely think that more developers are going to move into no code because they don't need to do the repetitive stuff.

[00:29:00] The same custom writing for basic components for structures layouts all of that can be done with no code very efficiently and then you can hook that up to your back end with your custom solution.

[00:29:13] So I think if anything no code started as a gateway as a good way to encourage people to start designing and developing but it's become it's Achilles heel now because now people hear no code and they think no code I'll never code or this isn't coding it is coding all of it is code you can generate all of your designs export them as code.

[00:29:37] But they don't think about that so for their creating this weird sort of battle between it's an either or it's not it all starts as code then the developer finds a way of giving you those functions in a visual way.

[00:29:50] So I think over time what's going to happen is the no code space is going to get its identity people are going to understand why they're getting into no code into visual development itself.

[00:30:00] I think a lot of people that's got in to become essentially template designers are component designers it's going to get so saturated that they won't be able to stand out in that market anymore and the quality of the websites is going to get higher to a point where you can't just use components you have to actually design.

[00:30:20] So in a way that saturation I'm worried about it'll fix itself the quality will come up and the clients their taste their demands are going to be much higher so you can't just use the shortcuts that we are today there's it's like kind of gold rush right now right but after a while.

[00:30:37] It runs out you know the gold rush is going to end at some point and then the market is going to balance but to me my biggest prediction is that.

[00:30:45] There are going to be no code they're going to be tools really powerful tools where you can essentially select what kind of functionalities you want for a particular project and it's going to give you the essentially build your own designer and I already know tools that do that like clutch for example like builder they're not no co tools it's kind of like compare garage band and logic pro.

[00:31:09] You know garage band is like web flow anyone can get into it anyway of course more advanced but then logic pros the is where all the real editing happens so.

[00:31:18] What platforms I clutch and do is they can essentially start off by asking you what are you trying to build website app web app whatever this and based on that it's like okay now what kind of what kind of design features do you need it's like well I need styling I need this this this it brings you those tools stacks them for you and now you've a.

[00:31:39] So you can essentially build your own web flow for that project but now what we're dealing with is kind of like the plastic phones where all the keys are there so you can't change anything and then the iPhone comes out and says you can customize it for whatever you want so I feel like web flow in these tools their biggest problem is their UI.

[00:32:00] Now I choose an app because of how it looks or how it feels but when you have a platform where you can decide what you have what features you have you're essentially building your own software and I saw early stages of that already and it's incredible the fact that you can just log in.

[00:32:18] And each project doesn't have any function that you don't need for that project but now if I'm building a simple landing page in web flow there are dozens of things that I don't need at all but it's always there you know so or like if I'm building civilization I need a very specific set of features and it's always hidden in some menu or somewhere so when I saw the early stages of clutch and some of these tools I just look to them I'm like wait a minute you can customize the entire designer

[00:32:46] and you can also build custom features that you can integrate there yeah you basically built a completely customizable visual editor so I think that's the her the ceiling once you get there you can integrate AI AI can start customizing these tools too

[00:33:04] and then just start building a lot of these things for you but I still don't think that any tool is going to replace human creativity.

[00:33:11] How do you feel about AI art with a versus human art I don't care about AI art at all I can already tell it's AI just with the sort of the abstract way to approach is paint and pixels you know and it's become a problem now because that's so saturated too people are so excited about that wave but the thing is we value output creative output.

[00:33:34] So when something can be done in two seconds versus Alex spend hours meticulously his creativity is unique I think that that's valued a whole lot more and I think it's the same thing in web design if you gave me the same structure standard web design structure.

[00:33:53] And said okay two designers are going to be designing the same type of website I promise you the guy who went and did all the custom components you will be able to separate that from the copy paste that you saw on the other screen you can tell that this is the individual creativity this person expressed.

[00:34:11] And I feel like right now because of kind of that gold rush people are not really valuing that they think as long as this the designer can give me the website faster and I'll pay less I'll value that but what happens when the whole market is so.

[00:34:26] NUMD by that output that they don't even want to look at your website anymore well now you have to go back to those creative people and pay them three times as much to get out of that saturation so.

[00:34:38] I think this is where we need to all work together as a community and kind of discourage that and say like I get you can make money faster.

[00:34:46] But in the end it's going to bite you in the ass your clients are going to be lower quality clients you're not going to make the 10 20 30 40 thousand dollars that you're looking for an eventually if the older clients think that it's so easy to do why would they ever pay you.

[00:35:01] So it's the tie that raises all boats or brings it all down you know so.

[00:35:07] It right now the market isn't big enough there's enough room for everyone to just try experiment but eventually it will become too many too noisy so we will have to find a way of cutting the noise and pushing quality forward so I hope my projects and help with that.

[00:35:24] Sarkis has been living in Chennai for a while is also been traveling all around the world as he said at the very beginning but I wanted to know what makes Chennai so special to him.

[00:35:39] I think you're a product of your environment so it's very important as a creative whether you're a developer designer editor, podcaster to be an environment that is conducive to your creativity.

[00:35:57] It can push you forward for me the reason I came to Thailand and I'm living in Chennai right now is because it gives me peace and quiet and it's very colorful the energy is very colorful.

[00:36:07] The people are very colorful so every day you're exposed to new ideas to new people to new approaches and it definitely impacts my design process.

[00:36:16] It impacts my own personal mental emotional physical health you know being in a space that isn't very noisy it's very colorful and it just encourages you to it just gets out of your way.

[00:36:27] A lot of cities they just it's too crowded you feel like a speck of dust here it's just the city leaves you alone it says here's what do you need take it find your corner go to your cafe co-working space your home wherever it is it's very affordable and just focus on personal growth.

[00:36:45] And only after really coming here after traveling to so many countries in my family that I really understand the value of what it means for a city to just support you it's it's you don't have to fight so hard to make it or to find your niche or your space but having lived in really big countries in the past I've noticed like it's just a constant battle to find your place.

[00:37:12] So here when I first got here just immediately felt like I already just whole city is my space you know and I think that's what attracts so many people here it's been like a little hidden gem for many years for many people.

[00:37:22] It still is i'm glad it's not too popular yet you know I hope it always stays that way to a degree I don't it needs to grow of course but I've seen cities that started that way and just became tourist traps and whatever and lost its identity but for me I.

[00:37:40] I don't think Thailand is for everybody it has this pros and cons but I feel like a lot of people they get so grossed in their career or just being told what to do they don't realize how much their environment can impact our thinking in their creativity and for me like definitely being in very crowded noisy spaces my quality of work goes 50% down versus environment like this.

[00:38:07] So I would just encourage a lot of people to especially if you have the opportunity to explore and try new places and new ideas do it as early as you can find your space and most importantly I would say try to get to a place where you're not doing it because of the money you're actually doing it because you love doing it whether design development doesn't matter.

[00:38:27] And being in a space that is affordable that can let you think like that is so valuable but if you're in San Francisco for example or you're in you know Europe and it's so expensive just to get months to month it's hard to focus on yourself and just have like a little space to think about what you want.

[00:38:43] So it's kind of crazy that people wait until they retire and then they ask themselves for the first time what do I actually want it's already too late.

[00:38:52] You know so it's such a blessing that both of us can be in a space like this and just ask ourselves personal questions and not feel the pressure of every day like you still have to work you stuff to work hard but you don't have to work as hard.

[00:39:06] So use that opportunity as well as you can and for me I would say Chiang Mai eventually is going to be a place that I come and go.

[00:39:14] I think from what I said earlier as well to you we can wrap up on that is I really see this as a place where you can bootstrap yourself and your ideas but when you need to develop it further you need to go to a country where the infrastructure is more broad like definitely for running a startup or building it up America Europe these places have years of you know they're structured for that.

[00:39:39] Highland is in Southeast Asia in general is just starting to catch up to the startup culture but because it's so affordable and so early you can actually carve your niche very quickly in that space get the resources validate your ideas especially with no coach tools build your MVP and then go raise investment and build your ideas in a bigger place and then maybe open a branch here have a support structure but always be on the move don't get stuck in one place I know people who haven't left.

[00:40:08] They're home town for 40 years it's crazy to me so I love meeting people love traveling and catching up and it was great to meet you Alex.

[00:40:24] Thank you so much for listening to this episode until the end.

[00:40:28] I was a bit of an attempt to do something a bit different than the other episodes where it's mostly conversation and also it was due to the lack of equipment that I had because I only had like a small microphone and my phone to register that.

[00:40:45] Thank God authentic exist I don't maybe you don't know this service they're not sponsoring me by the way but it really really helped enhancing the quality of this recording because we recorded with Sarkis outside in the streets of Chiang Mai in a in a busy place on a terrace there was a lot of people around the cars and everything and you didn't hear any of that because

[00:41:15] I used a phonics technology to suppress the background noise.

[00:41:20] I would usually keep the background noise if I had like better like my good microphones with me but with this small microphone that I had, it was a bit too much I felt like it was not doing justice to the voice of Sarkis.

[00:41:41] So so I went for this for this episode style and I hope you liked it.

[00:41:47] I think the content I think is fascinating I really enjoyed the conversation actually before we started recording we talked for almost an hour and it was great it was really super happy that I had a chance to meet with Sarkis.

[00:42:02] I loved Chiang Mai as well I think it's beautiful and amazing city.

[00:42:06] It is not a cliche of the digital nomad paradise that maybe Bali can be I haven't been to Bali so I don't know I'm not gonna judge too much.

[00:42:17] Chiang Mai has some of this feeling but also a lot of very good parts amazing nature around it amazing food of course Thai food amazing people.

[00:42:28] So I really liked it I found it quite busy but it's not too much also it's not like too too cliche of like solo entrepreneurs and things like that.

[00:42:39] So yeah if you have a chance go go have a look go to Thailand honestly I think it's an amazing city don't believe anyone who say it's too touristy or anything you can easily avoid the touristy traps and the touristy places

[00:42:54] but it's beautiful it's gorgeous people are so nice the food is amazing you can find quiet in peace or you can find party and everything you want.

[00:43:04] So yeah I had a great trip and I don't know what the next season will be the next trip.

[00:43:12] I did only one recording on this trip because I was mostly on vacation and also to be fair I couldn't find many more interesting people in the Naka space or interesting people in general that I feel like would fit in this podcast.

[00:43:29] So but honestly I think what Sarkis and this exchange this conversation this content is already like quite quite great it's just like one condensed episode but that has a lot lot lot of value.

[00:43:47] So so I hope you liked it and please subscribe to the podcast it's very irregular. I as I've said if you don't know the concept I only record when I meet people in person I don't do any live recording because I'm a bit tired of Zoom calls and Google meets and all this.

[00:44:09] So and I don't travel all the time of course so but subscribe send me a message on LinkedIn on ex or wherever you can find me and yeah please let me know what you think of this bye.